Curse

Cicada Sopita · Oct 02, 2006, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Who does it bother really if those with all skills unlocked have it easy in the beginning island? Like stated already, an experienced player can still build their heroes to be more effective than an average newcomer, even with limited access to elite skills. In previous chapters most veterans rather took henchies than PUGs. In Nightfall the henchies will be left behind because of heroes. It doesn't affect the new players chance of finding a group that much.

Cybah · Oct 02, 2006, 12:10 PM // 12:10

hero system is good as it is atm. but I want to play with more than 3 heros

heros I love u

Shattered Self · Oct 02, 2006, 01:22 PM // 13:22

People seem to be missing the point. FrogDevourer is suggesting buffing non-first PvE characters, not nerfing heroes. Frankly, I think it's an issue that could be resolved by limiting (not eliminating) their use of locked gates & required missions; Prophecies didn't have quite enough, Factions had way too many.

GloryFox · Oct 02, 2006, 01:39 PM // 13:39

I can’t believe half of the posts I am reading here.

1 I unlocked those skills for my account; I want my HERO’s to build how I would build one of my own characters. Why shouldn’t the player who has been unlocking everything have an advantage over players who don’t? This gives the casual player something to work on and rewards the veteran player at the same time.

2 Most people here who are veteran players have money and can gold sinc their HERO’s fairly easy for equipment. Therefore would most players here suggest limiting your gold contributions because you have farmed gold for the past year and a half? I did not think so. Why should skills be any different?

Sorry if I burst anyone’s bubble here but I do not want an even playing field. I don’t believe in even playing fields. I earned skill unlocks therefore if my HERO’s are uber then I earned that right. Just like a person might earn the right to equip their HERO’s with all green items using gold they farmed. Only in this way my HERO’s are not instant Ebay’d. Unlocking Elites is something you work for not purchase. My HERO's should reflect that.

Sir Mad · Oct 02, 2006, 02:19 PM // 14:19

I think I understand Frog's point of view a bit better now.

Think about it this way. When you join a PUG, you know that statiscally among your 7 teammates there will be a couple of "novices" (I don't want to use the word "noob"), aka players with a poor build who don't really know what they're doing. That's generally ok, they don't do any good, but they don't do any bad either. Of course sometime you have an uber-noob aggroing everything around and making the whole team fail but generally inexperienced players belong to the first category I mentioned. And with them, you can still complete the mission: 2 players out of 8 not helping much because of their lack of experience is not a big deal.

Now if I understand well how heroes work (tell if I'm wrong: again, I haven't tested), you can make a full team with 2 players and 2*3 heroes. Now what will happen if the player who joins you is inexperienced? That won't be 1 or 2 players with a poor build but half of the team. Yeah the mission is likely to fail then.

Why do most of the players join PUGs? I'd rather play with people I know (friends, guildies) but I can't expect to have 7 mates helping me whenever I do a mission (and don't want to bother them with that). But with heroes, you'd only need one to have a full team. So who will you join then? A random guy with potentially 4 poor builds or someone you know? Someone I know, definitelty.

Oh and btw:

Quote:

Only in this way my HERO’s are not instant Ebay’d. Unlocking Elites is something you work for not purchase

Can't you purchase unlock packs now on the online store?

SilentAssassin · Oct 02, 2006, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Mad

Can't you purchase unlock packs now on the online store?

that has nothing to do with this issue, because this issue is about PvE and those packs you are talking about is only for PvP.

Gli · Oct 02, 2006, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilentAssassin

that has nothing to do with this issue, because this issue is about PvE and those packs you are talking about is only for PvP.

So there's 2 kinds of 'unlocked' now? Unlocked for PvP and unlocked for PvE. Can anyone confirm this?

Sir Mad · Oct 02, 2006, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilentAssassin

that has nothing to do with this issue, because this issue is about PvE and those packs you are talking about is only for PvP.

Wait are you saying if you purchase such a pack you won't be able to purchase the normal skills (unlocked) from any trainer in the campaign, nor use them for your heroes?

EDIT - Ah Glj's been faster. But to me it sounds like a false information.

FrogDevourer · Oct 02, 2006, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

So there's 2 kinds of 'unlocked' now?

No. Unlock packs work for both even if they are basically more useful for PvP (you don't need skill points like in PvE).

gr3g · Oct 02, 2006, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cybah

hero system is good as it is atm. but I want to play with more than 3 heros

Oh but you can! Upto six heroes at once in a standard 8 man party!

Eclair · Oct 02, 2006, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Newcomers should be playing with other newcomers in the first place. They'll never learn if they just hitch a ride with an experienced group all the time. I mean, when we all started Prophecies, there were no players who were already running their 2nd or 3rd character through the games to form a party with.

I sometimes join Pugs when I'm by myself, but if another guildmate is on, we'll just grab 6 henchies and do the mission. The only thing heros will change is that instead of 6 henchies, we'd bring 6 heroes.

Most experienced people bring henchies over joining a PuG anyways.

Spader · Oct 02, 2006, 09:52 PM // 21:52

6 herors? i'll steam roll phropieses and look good doing it.

even if its only three heros i'd just give a couple of monk hero's a couple of stonereapers for energy, take the hench monk little thom and maybe the ele. i might be a little off with my math on the party size but hench way will be king.

Cybah · Oct 02, 2006, 10:47 PM // 22:47

well but you need a mate to bring 6 heros..... i want 6 for my own :P

CKaz · Oct 05, 2006, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Responding to the original post, in total agreement -

This Chapter looks to pull me back into GW, Heroes being a big part of it. I really only have 2 issues, one of which is covered in another thread (any hero space would help a lot).

And this one, even bigger.

For the FPE - I played a Paragon, and I loved playing as commander - with a W/? with all my unlocks, and a Mo/? with all my unlocks... my Paragon tossed some group help out but it was a lot more fun/interesting/flexible to play with the heroes, and isn't it a kick in the pants YOU did all the work and YOUR HEROES reap the rewards, while your character is a little newblit?

Adding a 3rd, once again great flexibility... right your own heroes own you. So the money sink is in to buy regular skills but how about grinding across 3 chapters and working on all the secondary ones, AGAIN, that you'd want to play with? Grab another old school pal, 6 heroes with access to all, and the two you both play - with a LOT less options in the skill deck.

It goes beyond them being > a new char, they're >= to your best, in skill selection. In my case I have 3 characters that led the way (ele, warr, nec), a few more that got up there (assassin, monk) - the first 3 split the skill/cap load [e/me, w/r, n/mo for the most part]. So I flushed out more of mine as you might imagine, I love options. My core 3 are multi-hundred hour each and been around a year +, but already the Warr, Ele, and Nec heros out of the gate can access/do MORE, yes even level 2 Koss.

I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing - I did the work the time, and its refreshing not to always wait - ie 100blades at the end of the game, even when, quite frankly, it's not THAT uber of an elite. But it does scream the fact that there's so much grind and sink into starting anew that quite frankly heros achieve what we'd like to do with all of our characters - without the hundreds of hours, plats, and grind expended!

So I'm in total agreement - where it doesn't make sense to be born on an island with everything, we need some love for the character so they aren't sooo limited so long - don't need the Koss is boss at level 2 treatment, but throw us a bone so our new characters don't wait 10-15-20 levels before they're scratching elites and switching secondaries. The Hero system only helps point out that fact and one reason having a lot of fun with new characters going forward feels (and is) that much more of a chore.

Mordakai · Oct 05, 2006, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Perhaps it's time for an idea I had while ago, but doubted it's popularity:

Lev 20 PvE characters right off the bat.

We can discuss restrictions, unlocks, all the other details later, but basically the idea is to create a level 20 PvE character right off the bat, and jump into "Role Playing" action.

Obviously, there would be some restrictions (perhaps beating the Chapter first with another Character?), but as FrogDevourer says, Guild Wars is at the point now that it's very annoying to have to go back and cap Elites from Prophecy for your new Paragon. It just doesn't make sense to have to do that.

I guess the argument is that this is a "Role Playing" character, but since when did "role playing" mean "boring grinding?"

Options for Elites:

If the Elite is unlocked, there could be a quest to do to get access to a special Elite Trainer, who would sell you Elites for "x" Gold (3,000?).

Or, Elites could be available upon Character creation, either a limited amount, or perhaps even all from a certain Chapter?

I'm curious if this idea is popular, and to hear other suggestions.

SnipiousMax · Oct 05, 2006, 08:40 PM // 20:40

^ I don't mind at all going through the motions of getting my character to level 20. I don't enjoy, however, having to go back into prophicies to some ubscure distant area filled with annoying baddies to cap an elite, instead of playing through the new content. I'd just say offer all unlocked skills (elites included) at every skill trainer.

gr3g · Oct 05, 2006, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

[...]

I don't necessarily support new level 20 RP characters, but I do think skill unlocks should be account-wide. It's the next step in the natural evolution away from skill quests to true flexibility. I don't think there are any elites that are all that overpowered at lower levels. Maybe Barrage, but that's about it. What we will gain is an ability to play "endgame builds" such as Backbreaker+Holy/Stonesoul Strike (one of my favs) over a much longer span.

CKaz · Oct 05, 2006, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Yeah if we've done the work, often several times over, do we have to keep redoing it to play the way we want/try what we want? Really?

I'd absolutely dread sending any of my new characters deep into Factions.
But if there's a combo/elite for some of the core classes, or if they want real assassin or ritualist secondary options? Meanwhile I've been in and re-visiting chp1 for a long time now...

Some new content (catch up quest(s), etc) to bridge the cap, 3k a pop sounds a bit harsh for elites you've hit before for going unlock crazy - I'm 'casual' hardcore as it is (I have the talent but not the time to match haha) but I could see that getting expensive fast. Still its a more palatable option than grind the heck away late chp1/chp2 again to get it.

But yeah earlier extra 15pt attribs were a GREAT move, but more is needed. Earlier 2ndary switch (even senji with all the gates was annoying), earlier dipping into the new elites, and yes some better way for us to re-capture what we had.

Some other thoughts of mine, I have stupid amounts of collector nabs in chp2 that really have no purpose (outside waiting on Nightfall to see what collector items make sense for the mob of heroes to equip). How about letting us leverage some of those collectibles for [re-]buying skills and elites instead or as well as a cash buy? At least that means playing the new content rather than hacking through past chapters.

Anything to make digging into the good fun stuff of PVE easier than languishing against the old grind and barriers - and no not all PVE is grind, there is playing the game for fun, and then there's having to repeat efforts over and over/for extended periods of time to be able to play as or try what you want, which can bring into question the mechanics of the game.

LuckyGiant · Oct 06, 2006, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

I can’t believe half of the posts I am reading here.

1 I unlocked those skills for my account; I want my HERO’s to build how I would build one of my own characters. Why shouldn’t the player who has been unlocking everything have an advantage over players who don’t? This gives the casual player something to work on and rewards the veteran player at the same time.

2 Most people here who are veteran players have money and can gold sinc their HERO’s fairly easy for equipment. Therefore would most players here suggest limiting your gold contributions because you have farmed gold for the past year and a half? I did not think so. Why should skills be any different?

Sorry if I burst anyone’s bubble here but I do not want an even playing field. I don’t believe in even playing fields. I earned skill unlocks therefore if my HERO’s are uber then I earned that right. Just like a person might earn the right to equip their HERO’s with all green items using gold they farmed. Only in this way my HERO’s are not instant Ebay’d. Unlocking Elites is something you work for not purchase. My HERO's should reflect that.

I agree, I love the hero system and also think it should baised toward player that have been playing longer, when Anet implemented it they mustve known its going to be taken advantage of (whether it be farming or replacing pugs) theres very little that can be done to stop this happening unless the number of skills a hero can carry are reduced.

I want to know if I have access to UW with it

2 man farming with your hero will no doubt become popular in the harder to farm spots

As for the issue regarding unlocks that has been bought up, I would not be happy if your pve character had access 'pvp unlocked' skills. (in saying that I almost have fully unlocked account at least 1/2 from faction)
But I see no reason why you should have to recapture/buy skills that your primary characters have but you also need that skill for the secondary of another character, it's pretty ridiculous.

A better way of doing it is if you have previously unlocked it in PvE then you have automatic access to buy it for free (no skill point cost either) at the skills trainers access to it. ie: aura of displacement unlocked in PvE for assassin then you also need it for warrior/assassin, you should get it for free (no costs what-so-ever) from a skill trainer.